Public versus Private AND class size......

[raidermom]

I've already enrolled my DD into a private kindergarten, but that's where this school stops and I'm left with the decision on where to send her for 1st grade.

I would really love to hear from teachers or parents who have experience or strong opinions on the matter. My first instinct was to send her to a prestigious Catholic school near me...but after seeing the open house I noticed that their 1st grade had 3 classes, each with 35 students and NO AIDES. I found that to be way too high of a student/teacher ratio, especially for elementary students. Although my child is very bright and is already reading at age 4, she is not a "loud" child, she tends to blend in. So my concern is that she will get lost in the shuffle, not be challenged to HER ability, and if she does struggle she won't get the attention she deserves. I have found another Catholic school whose class size is between 17-20...MUCH more acceptable!

But now I'm hearing from other parents, one of them a public school teacher...that the teachers they hire at Catholic schools are "sub standard". (their words NOT mine..please don't get angry) They said that they make a very small wage compared to the public school teachers...and say "so what do you think you're going to get for those $11,000 a year wages?" First, I find it hard to believe that ANY teacher only makes $11,000 a year....c'mon! I think they're just strong in their opinion and will diss any private school no matter what...am I wrong?

I'M SO CONFUSED!!!!

Any thoughts from anyone???

[JMC]

One of my friends who became a teacher really wanted to teach at a Catholic school, as she's very religious and wanted to go into that type of a community. She couldn't live on the salaries that Catholic schools were offering. I don't believe it was as low as $11K, but it DEFINITELY was in the lower teens!! She had to teach in a public school because the salary was double what the Catholic schools' salaries were!! Who can expect anyone to live on less than $15K a year??

[raidermom]

That's just disgusting....for the price these places charge for tuition you'd think that they'd pay their teachers appropriately.

I really thought this was malarky...but I guess not. :(

[Incrediblemomster]

Cheryl,
As the Mom of 4 kids who have attended or are attending Catholic schools, I have to say that, for the most part, the teachers are paid less (even though they charge an arm and a leg for tuition, they get no state money like the public schools do!)BUT that doesn't mean they are sub-standard teachers. Most of them love to teach . . and they like the discipline/structure/usually smaller class size of the parocial school system. My experience has been that it's not necessarily a "you get what you pay for" situation, but instead, you get a very caring, nurturing professional who is usually doing his/her job for the love of the kids and the love of teaching.

I still feel they need to be paid more! But I personally feel that the private schools my daughters are/have been in have truly helped me raise them, not just educate them, and as a single Mom, that is very important to me. . .

As for class size, no school should have 35 kids in a class with no aid!

Just my opinion!

Terry

[ May 12, 2004, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Incrediblemomster ]

[Mhami]

My DD is going to a public school where the class size for K-2 is 20 and I think starting in 3 grade on is 30. My DD is in 2nd grade and is reading at 5.5 grade level. She is very good at math too. It could be the child, but really I give a lot of her success to the teachers and school.

I am really bummed because due to lack of funds they are closing two of the best performing schools in our area. They are also increasing the class size to 30 for kindergarten and 2nd grade. They figure since much of the reading starts in 1st grade they would leave that at 20 students per class. One of these schools is the one my DD goes to.

Anyway, now my DD has to go to her neighborhood school which has the lowest API test scores in the whole town. I am pretty upset about this, but my In-laws who are both retired teachers think that the it really comes down to how good the teachers are. In my case, the teachers are probably good, it is just the children are having a difficult time learning as they are just learning English, thus the low API score.

Anyway, back to you. I'm not sure what's better private or public, but it probably does have a lot to do with the teachers. Maybe you can talk to some of the parents whose children go to that school. I think 35 students per class is way to many.

Good luck,

Marianne

[ May 12, 2004, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Mhami ]

[Duchess Talks Too Much]

I think your decision should be based on a) your own child's abilities and b) the teachers rather than the school itself. Wayyyy back when my kids started school, they went to a private pre-K and Kindergarten where they received wonderful, individualized attention and excelled. However, upon entering first grade they attended the local "neighborhood" school which was very ethnically diverse and again - they excelled. Before placing them in the school, however, I did speak with as many parents of current/former students as I could to get opinions on the teachers abilities/personalities. From there, I submitted written requests to the principal asking for specific teachers each year - my requests were never denied. Since that time we moved to another state and into a neighborhood with a new charter school that billed itself as having the qualities of a private school, but free tuition. My kids attended the charter school for 2 years - where they did still do well academically, but I was disappointed in a majority of the teaching staff. This year I placed them back into public school where again they have done wonderfully! My DS will finish 8th grade with a 4.0 GPA and a member of the National Junior Honor Society and DD will enter her "middle" school years with straight A's and awards in creative writing. :D

[ May 12, 2004, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Duchess Talks Too Much ]

[KGC]

Cheryl, both of my kids attended the same Catholic independent school that I attended (K to 9). It is true that the teachers are paid less, but like in any profession, you get great teachers and not so great teachers and we've had both. All independent schools are different, but we really liked the "family" atmosphere of the school. We know all of the teachers and most of the other families. My DD is now in a public high school and found that her years in a Catholic school gave her pride and enough self confidence in her faith and she's not afraid to talk about it in front of the other kids, even though she has been teased, mostly good natured ribbing. My DS is still at the Catholic school in Grade 8 and is very happy to stay for Grade 9. He likes the ability to talk about his faith in school and with his friends. We're unhappy with the current principal, but are overall really happy with our decision to send them there. It sounds like the school you're considering is much larger than ours, so I think you're very wise to consider class size and availability of teacher aides. Good luck with your decision.

[Heaklea]

I have taught at both public and parochial schools. You earn a lot less at parochial schools, but for the most part, the teaching is easier because you get scads of parent support. If a child is rude or disrepectful in a parochial school, you know the teachers and the parents share the same values, and you can remind the student of that. The teachers and parents work more as a team to better the child. Part of the faith based education is accepting responsibility for your actions and making amends to those you may have offended by your actions. Even though the school I taught in was in a "tough" area, there were no real disciple problems. That, not slow learners or exceptional students, is what steals most of a teacher's time. We have two Catholic schools, one Luthern school, one Baptist and a Hebrew Day School, all with excellent students and families in my town.

I don't, however, hold a high opinion of the private, non-faith based, for profit, schools. I live in a very affluent area now and the local private school seems to be where the students with disciple problems and parents with money wind up. As long as they write the fat monthly check, their child is doing fine. The teachers in these schools are not often accredited and get paid significantly less than public school teachers. The trend for discipline problems seems to be faith-based (asked to leave) or public (calls from the principal about behavior) to write the check and leave me alone.

Good luck to you.
Heather

[raidermom]

Wow...thanks everyone for your replies! :D

I did hear from a few of the moms at the catholic school, that the difference is in parental involvement and the discipline with the students. This is something that definitely interests me.

I have a feeling that I will be sending her to my parish's school, the one with the smaller class size. I haven't stopped in to check it out yet...but I will soon. I've heard wonderful things about it and the only negative that I've heard is that there aren't quite as many after school programs and such....because it isn't as "elite" as the other parish, which is in an upscale neighborhood. But my DD is involved in quite a bit of outside activities and will be whether the school provides them or not.

I really, really appreciate you all giving me your thoughts on this. I like to make informed decisions and your reponses have helped with that!

Thanks again! graemlins/bcbsalute.gif

[pikamom]

Cheryl--those of us that work at Catholic schools do so for the love of the children, the people we work with and the building up of our faith. How much better can it be to be at school on a lovely day in May and watch little children in their First Communion clothes crown the statue of Mary and process around the school. I am only an assistant, and also don't make much money but love what I do. I am glad you are going to check out the other school before making a decision. I do think more than 30 in a class without an assistant. We have 28 but with a full time assistant in preK-3rd grade. I work for the LD teacher and we have 25 students in all grades.

All 3 of our sons went to this same school and the oldest one went on to public high school. He was so surprised that they did not have church at school when he went there. The younger ones went to Catholic high school--our baby graduates next Friday night. The middle one graduated from a small Jesuit college last Sunday.

I think since Sarah is a quiet one you are smart to check out different schools. It is true that the squeaky wheels get more attention. Is there time to take her with you to visit the kindergartens before the end of school?

Check in with you later. Love, Cinde graemlins/wave.gif

[raidermom]

Thanks Cinde! graemlins/wave.gif

I really like what catholic schools have to offer.....especially being a part of a faith based environment.

She is going to kindergarten at a "private" kindergarten, but not parochial. This is the same school that Sarah's been going to since she was one...when it was called "My Baby N Me", which is similar to like a Gymboree class only much better. The owner is an elementary teacher who started her own family AND started this business. Each year she has expanded it to include a parent-participated (parents must remain in class) preschool for 3 & 4 year olds...then she added a drop off preschool for 3 & 4, which Sarah started when she was 3..then last year she started a private Kindergarten.

I am an aide for the 4 year preschool and I SEE the worksheets that the kindergarten students do.....it's MIND BOGGLING!! She has gone to conferences with other teachers and they can't believe the student's work that she brings along to display. They are working on 2nd grade books right now. So, of course, being thru this before and knowing what my OLDER two children learned in kindergarten (letters, sounds, how to write name and address)...I was quite impressed with this and signed Sarah up again for another year with this wonderful teacher. This is a teacher that is fun btw...not a militant type. She commands respect from them, teaches them manners.....I have never been so impressed with the behavior and thoughtfulness of a group of 4 year olds.

Which is why AFTER kindergarten I wish to continue with the same values and ideals. The teacher sends HER children to the upscale parochial school of which I speak....she swears by it. I have never questioned her and I believe what she tells me. It's only recently that I have doubts and it's mainly due to the class size. In my heart I know that teachers are a different breed that aren't out to make the almighty dollar......but when other people put it to you in a way that makes it seem as though the lower the wage the lower the qualification.....I don't know, it muddles the thought process a little and that's why I came on here to get the different perspectives from all of you. I am glad for the responses because it REALLY has helped. I plan on calling my parish's school next week to see if we can come in and peek around. My oldest graduates high school in less than a month, so I'm a little crazy lately! graemlins/crazy.gif

Thanks Cinde...... graemlins/kiss.gif

[Msmandeee]

Hello,

I grew up in a big city, and there are plenty ofboth types of schools. All of my ideas are from personal experience. One of my best friends went to private and OI went to public.

I think that for elementary school, private and public are both great, at least here.

I think the time when it REALLY seems to make a difference is when you get to middle school/high school age. "At risk" kids seem to do better in private,its more difficult to get away with too much, whereas in public these kids can slip through the cracks.

A good student will prosper anywhere, and here it is much easier to get college scholarships in the public schools. There was more competition at the private schols, and less funding to go around.

If on of the schools offered a larger variety of classes, I think that would be the best choice, because if the child lacks interest in general subjects, they may prosper with other choices. The public schools here offer only general courses, math science, history etc, whereas the private offer Psychology, Sociology, more art programs, forensic science etc, things that are a bit more interesting to the students.

[crazedmomof4]

I really was intrigued by this topic. I have 4 children they have all been in public school and the last 3 have also been in private school. I believe that a faith based education at a private school is far superior than the public schools (at least where we are). I have been in some great public schools and some sorry ones growing up as my dad was military. I always excelled because I was a bright student. My siblings always suffered at the lesser quality schools. So I agree with those that have already stated a bright child will succeed in almost any environment. But back to my kids.
My oldest has always struggled in public school. Never a fighter but just always struggled due to ADD (he is 24 now and back then they knew so little). I could never get the public schools to work with me on gettng him to reach his full potential. In 10th grade they basically told me they could just kick him out when he reached 16 rather than work with him. He left school the day he turned 16 and got his GED. My other three kids have had struggles for different reasons. My second child was so bright he was bored by public school but our public school wouldn't even give him extra work even if I supplied the materials and books to them. My daughter had a rare illness in 3-5th grade and missed much school. she recieved homebound off and on for those years from the county but very little education. My youngest has a learning disability called dysgraphia and would get in trouble for not coloring. Since we found out what he has it all makes sense. I say all this to set the stage. i was told by public schools that what I expect in a school was non-existant. That I had to high of a standard and teachers wouldn't deviate from a teaching plan because it was not fair to the other children. Well my husband was a teacher but had left teaching for a job that paid alot more money. When we had problems with my daughters health we decided that he had to go back to teaching. He applied and was offered a job with several private schools. He chose the private christian school we had desired for our children to go to. Our children have been there for 4 years and they couldn't be happier. The benefits to our children have been exponential. This is the school I always dreamed of so they do exist. My children are free to express their faith. They are not only free but encouraged to learn who they really are as individuals. Because the values of the school mirror our own, the children always know what to expect and what will not be tolerated. Because all children are not only taught respect for God, country, families, others and self but are expected to show it at all times the environment is almost always pleasant and caring. Even between third graders. These teachers do not get paid what they could get in public school but they are hands down better educators than I have experienced in our public schools. Mostly because they are loving, and caring, and not discouraged by county and state mandates and parents who don't care. Parental involvement allows them to do things they could never do in public schools. And although it may sound as if I am bitter, I really am not. I in no way fault those teachers, but the environemtn they ahve to work in. There are a lot of really good teachers in public school that I have had the priviledge to work with but they are tied to public policy and the current thing you can or can't do. Private teachers dont ahve those inhibitions. We just require a christian world view and I wouldn't change this school for anything. The teachers are also very approachable. But the biggest thing i like is the family atmosphere. My husband teaches, mykids go to school with him, We have one in high school one in middle school and one in elementary and they don't have to be seperated. We do all things as a family. We all go to Matts soccer events, or Laura's basketball games, or Michaels school plays. Society will tear us apart soon enough, but to be able to be a family throughout high school is great. The kids are not ashamed of their parents and we are not ashamed of our kids. What a great way to go through school. Matt is officially a senior now for next year and he doesn't mind doing anything with us. So the benefits to the teachers at these schools may have a lot more to do with the values and desires of that teacher. Being able to get free tuition actually elevates my husbands sub standard pay to greater than he would make in pbulic school...equal to about $22,000. Being able to be with your kids until they leave for college...Priceless. Get the point!
(The lower pay is just a part of private schools becasue they do not have (and don't want) federal money. And all our teachers are accredited and most have masters or higher educations, that is definitely not substandard.) So I suggest you ask the school if their teachers are accredited and what their level of education is. Find a parent who has a few students there or has had several and see how they feel across the different grades. The best thing is to try to attend their closing days...ie like an honors day or a program they may have going on. Ask if you can visit. See the faces of the children, the teachers, the parents. Listen to conversations. Also ask to speak to the first grade teachers. They would probably love to talk to you. I would check out both schools. I agree I don't like the class size either but it could be a good fit for your child.
The last ( but not least) thing I love about private schools is that a greater number of kids get to experience a greater number of things...ie sports/drama/debate/forensics/model UN etc...as an example over 75 % of our kids participate in at least one sport. IN public middle and high schools it is a small percentage of the same kids that do sports. If you are not exceptional you dont even get to try out in public school. In our school if you show up you can be on teh team. We stand on the principles that it takes a team to win...The body of christ working together...And we have quite a few state championships in various sports so we must be doing something right. ( we also do not believe in bringing kids in just for athletic purposes...you must meet the academic demands then if you are a great athelete to boot then good for us. ) So ask what your schools priorities are ...

Dont get me wrong. This school has issues from time to time. but they are dealt with biblically and in a kind and caring way...even when teh outcomes are not what you think it should be, but I truely feel God is in control at this school so who am I to argue with God!!
Well enough rambling to say a lot of differnet things. :D Good luck, Linda

[latebloomer]

Hi:

Crazedmom sort of got to the point I was thinking is most important in this decision. How important is the Christian worldview to you? My kids left private school because beyond elementary school it was not cutting it academically, but we sure hate how. in public school, God is surgically removed from history, science, literature, everything. -and we live in the Bible Belt. It is very insidious. We work hard to "fill the void" at home but it is hard work.

If the school you are considering only accepts average or above kids, and discipline is good, than a bigger class size can work. I know just from being a Girl Scout leader that some kids are as much work as 5 other kids. The quiet ones do get ignored, though-in private and public schools. I have two quiet kids (how they came out of my womb I cannot figure!) Again, it is up to us as parents to help our kids grow according to their needs and abilities.

Read, pray, and remember the two most important indicators for school success.

1. Both parents live in the same house as the child.

2. Parents stress the importance of education.

Good luck!

NMP

[latebloomer]

Forgot to mention that Familylife.com has an excellent tape resource objectively comparing Private school, home school, and public school.

NMP

[whatfun2]

Hi Cheryl,

I think that you have asked an interesting question, and I don't know that anyone but you can answer it because I think every local is different!

This is what I think you need to keep in mind when you are choosing a school for your children ( I'm a special education teacher in a public school for over 20 years!)

1. How big are the class sizes? Classes over 35 are way too big. IMHO, classes over 20 for 1st grade are too big!

2. Are the teachers certified? (good) Or do they have temporary certificates ( not good).

3. How important to you is the religious aspect?

4. Tour the school. This is extremely important! Get a feel for the school. Every school has its own climate. Talk to the principal, secretary, teachers. Don't dismiss your gut instincts. Look at the halls... what work is displayed? Is it a bright cheery atmosphere? What's going on in the classrooms? Are the students all sitting and working quietly at their desks? If your child is not an auditory or visual learner, this would not be a good place for them. If your child is reading at 4, she probably is an auditory or visual learner. It may work for her. Are they all teaching out of text books, or is there some creativity? If your daughter is reading at 4, how bright is she? Will the school offer a gifted program if she needs it? Or will the general class make-up be bright enough to challenge her?

5. You can find great schools in both the private and the public setting. You can find great teachers in public and private schools. But all schools are not the same. No one on this board, unless they live in your community, can speak to your schools. You are going to have to go out and do the leg work. Talking to other parents is also a good idea. But don't take their word as gospel. Check it out yourself!

Good luck! Your children are very fortunate that you care enough to ask for help!

[pikamom]

Hey Cheryl--you sure have gotten some interesting replies to this post. I was going to tell you that we are having Meet and Greet days at school right now. Some preschools are bring students to our kindergarten classes at snack time to visit. Some parents are also bringing their children on their own to visit during lunch time, too.

When my sister had her sons she intended sending them to Catholic school. She lives in Texas and was so used to seeing so many Catholic schools around here in Alabama that she was surprised to see how far away the ones were in her city. They have awesome neighborhood public schools within walking distance of her house. She still misses that hers didn't get the religious teaching at school that mine did.

My baby boy graduates Friday night from McGill-Toolen High Catholic High School. My middle son graduated on Mothers Day from Spring Hill College, a small Jesuit college here. Congratulations on your graduation coming up.

I will be thinking about you and Sarah and praying that your decision will be an easy one. Love, Cinde graemlins/wave.gif

[raidermom]

Just to update everyone...I have an appointment at MY parish's school WITH the principal next Tuesday morning. I will take it from there after that I suppose.

I told Sarah's teacher about it and she expressed another concern to me. She said if the class sizes are so small that I should be concerned about the school closing in the near future. She is very involved in her parish and says that there are several local schools that will have to shut their doors because of low enrollment. She is right there...I've seen schools that have been around a looooooong time close their doors.

But that's a whole different worry and I'm not going to even go there until I visit the school and talk to the principal. I will express that concern and see what she says. But the way I look at THAT is if she goes to this school and it DOES close down...I'm sure the surrounding parishes will take in the kids...and my surrounding parish happens to be the elite parish of which I've been talking about.

I'll let you know my "gut" feelings on the school next week.

Thanks everyone! graemlins/wave.gif graemlins/bcbsalute.gif

[pikamom]

Hey Cheryl--you are right about being concerned about classes being too small too. We have 3 schools closing in Mobile this year. We are taking in a lot of new students next year from the closing schools. Glad you have an appointment and you are right about that gut feeling, too. I hope you have the feeling that you want when you go to visit. I will be thinking about you. Love, Cinde graemlins/wave.gif

[crazedmomof4]

My prayers are with you during this all important dicision.
Linda